Navy Joan Roberts has never met her grandfather, President Joe Biden.
Navy, the 5-year-old daughter of Hunter Biden and Lunden Roberts, has seen her grandfather, though—on TV.
Roberts, author of the forthcoming, “Out of the Shadows: My Life Inside the Wild World of Hunter Biden,” recounts Navy seeing President Biden’s image.
“We were in a nail salon one time, and she’s like, ‘Mom, look, there’s my grandpa.’ And I’m like, ‘First of all, lower your voice. Second off, yes,’” Roberts told The Daily Signal in an exclusive interview.
“And so, she sees him as this grandfather that she loves from a distance, but has this relationship where it doesn’t exist. But she knows that that’s her grandfather. She’s aware.”
For years, including after a paternity test proved that Hunter Biden was Navy’s father, President Biden and the first lady, Jill Biden, ignored Navy’s existence. Only last year did the couple acknowledge their granddaughter in a formal statement to People magazine.
Roberts has tried to justify the Bidens’ behavior to Navy. “I tell her about the president, how he has all these different tasks, and he’s so important. He’s the leader of the free world. I go into all these details with her, kind of like the books about kings and queens, like, ‘Well, we have a president.’ And she understands to that extent,” Roberts recounts.
“She says, ‘Oh, well, that’s why he hasn’t been to see me, because he’s out there helping so many other people. But when he’s done, he’s going to come see me,’” Roberts adds.
Currently, after years of no contact, Navy sees her father, Hunter, via Zoom. Roberts says, “I felt like sober Hunter could have been a good father.” But she acknowledges that Hunter, who was using drugs during their romantic relationship, had his demons: “I guess that’s part of falling for somebody. You just toss the red flags to the side.”
“He grasped that he was the black sheep of the family,” Roberts also said of her ex.
Watch our full interview above, or read a transcript, lightly edited for clarity and length, below.
Katrina Trinko: Joining me today is Lunden Roberts. She is the author of the new book, which is available for preorder, “Out of the Shadows: My Life Inside the Wild World of Hunter Biden.”
Lunden Roberts: Thanks for having me. It actually comes out Aug. 20. It’s the week before my daughter’s birthday. What better birthday gift can you give your daughter than your mother’s story, right?
Trinko: That’s wonderful. I’m sure she will love going to the bookstore and seeing her mom’s book.
Roberts: I hope so.
Trinko: So, before we get into your relationship with Hunter Biden, you’re from Arkansas, you came to D.C. You said you love D.C. What brought you to the city?
Roberts: I came for a CSI school. And I’ve always been obsessed with crime and who isn’t these days? Everybody loves those crime series and whatnot, and you get infatuated with them. But I actually came on a field trip to D.C. when I was in seventh grade and fell in love with the city then. Our teacher, our science teacher, was Teacher at Sea … and there was a banquet up here. And so, she brought some of her students up. I always knew I wanted to live up here and I love it. I always have.
Trinko: Do you have a favorite place in D.C.?
Roberts: Anywhere. Well, I love Arlington. Arlington area is my favorite. I used to live close to the cemetery, and I just thought it was beautiful out there. Gorgeous.
Trinko: And do you have a favorite true crime show or podcast, now that you’ve confessed to this?
Roberts: I like “The Following.” I like the serial killer-type stuff. Ted Bundy was—
Trinko: So weird. How did someone so charming … do so much damage?
Roberts: Well—
Trinko: Right. In not related topics—so, you’ve talked a lot in interviews about some of the, let’s say, less pleasant parts about your relationship with Hunter Biden. You talked about meeting him. I think he was in his boxers maybe doing drugs or getting ready to do drugs. But I assume your relationship is more than that. What were some of the good moments? What were the happy times that made you say, “I’m going to stay in this relationship”?
Roberts: Hunter had a way of making me laugh. And we would get under each other’s skin. And wittiness, he was so witty, and we’d go back and forth. And I thought he was so intelligent, and he’s one of them people you come into a room, he’s like a magnet. People want to get to know him. Maybe not—
Trinko: I’ve never been in a room with him.
Roberts: But he attracts people. He does. He’s very charming.
Trinko: And did you know right away that he was Joe Biden’s son, or did you find that out later?
Roberts: No, it was a few minutes in.
Trinko: A few minutes.
Roberts: It took a little bit. Yeah. It was in a conversation. I was sitting in Sen. Barack Obama’s chair. And it had his label on the wooden panel on the side and the years that he served in the Senate. And then the wheels are turning and it’s starting to make sense.
Trinko: So, were you at Hunter’s house at this point?
Roberts: No, I was at Rosemont Seneca.
Trinko: Oh, and they had the chair. Yeah, that would trigger some thinking.
Roberts: Yeah. Right?
Trinko: So, tell me about the relationship. Did you ever think, “Oh, maybe we’ll get married. Maybe this is my happily ever after”? Or was it meant to be casual?
Roberts: Well, the thing is, during that time—and I’ve always kind of been someone, I talk about that throughout the book, someone who’s been kind of detached from feelings. Not someone who’s dedicated to commitment, when it comes to relationships and stuff. I’ve always reacted on impulse and just lived in the moment. And that was the time in my life when I was living in the moment.
And Hunter was suffering from an addiction he’s been very candid about. And throughout the darkest times of his addiction was around the time that I knew him. And you know, a quality of addiction is in and out. Sometimes you’re there, sometimes you go missing for a little bit, and then you come back. And that’s kind of what our relationship consisted of.
I had been attracted to him. I talk about the first night I meet him and seeing his eyes and these beautiful blue, gray eyes. And they’re the most beautiful eyes I’d ever seen. And then I talk about how William Shakespeare even said the eyes [are] the windows to the soul. And I knew he was more complex than I knew. And it intrigued me. And I see that he’s suffering from all this in front of me and I can’t help but want to know more because he seemed so brilliant.
Trinko: And did you have any experience in your own life or in loved ones with addiction before this? Is there something that made you ready to take it on, I guess?
Roberts: Not really. And maybe that also intrigued me because I’d not. That just dawned on me just now. But yeah. No, not really. …
Trinko: No, it’s a hard life.
Roberts: It is. And it’s different because I can say before you know somebody and loved and cared for somebody that suffers from addiction, you don’t know what it’s like to love and care for somebody who suffers from addiction.
Trinko: Right.
Roberts: And I think that’s a real thing.
Trinko: So, did Hunter ever talk to you before you were pregnant about his kids or how he felt about being a father?
Roberts: Yes. Hunter felt, in a lot of ways, that he had let a lot of people down. And he had been through a whole lot in his life and now he’s at one of the darkest times in his life.
And I talked throughout the book how Hunter felt like—there were many times he confided in me about how he felt like a disappointment. And maybe he wasn’t the best. But … in his sober years … he had the potential to be the best. Because even with this addiction, I saw this endless potential in him. And I guess that’s part of falling for somebody. You just toss the red flags to the side.
Trinko: But I mean, it’s also real, the potential.
Roberts: And I think that he was just in a dark place, but I felt like sober Hunter could have been a good father.
Trinko: Did he talk at all about being in a political family himself? I mean, my family’s Christmas letter feels like enough pressure sometimes. But [his] father being the vice president and then, obviously, looking to run again. Was there a lot of emphasis about being picture-perfect? I mean, I know his addiction has come out, but did he grow up in an atmosphere of everything has to be just right?
Roberts: I would say yes and no, because the conversations that him and I had about it—and I talk about this throughout the book “Out of the Shadows,” I say Hunter, like I said, felt like a disappointment. Because he wasn’t always perfect and he didn’t live up to that. But he claims that his brother did.
And there were stories about his childhood I can remember. I can’t remember the exact name, but he had said that his friend’s parents would call Beau chief or sheriff or general, something along those lines. And it was because he was the one that would do everything right. And they knew that if their kid was with Beau, then their kid was probably in good hands and was making the right decisions.
And I was like, “They say that about you?” And he’s like, “No.” He knew. He grasped that he was the black sheep of the family. He didn’t do well with it, though. I know he didn’t like being a disappointment. The scandal-plagued son of a political family. You could tell that it pained him.
Trinko: So, you tell him you’re pregnant. And I believe you said he didn’t pressure you to make a decision one way or the other. But then he, correct me if I’m wrong, he just disappeared at some point?
Roberts: Yes, yes. And like I’ve said, that was in the darkest times of his addiction. And you chalk that up to his addiction, because you see the ins and outs of that throughout the first few chapters in the book. And you start to make excuses and enable, you know, that, “Well, he’s ignoring me. He’s addicted. That’s a quality, it’s a trait of someone who suffers from addiction.” And so, at first when I told him, he was OK with it. And then you become this burden, kind like the addiction. And so, it’s like a deflection, dismissive abandonment.
Trinko: So, when you gave birth to your daughter, Navy, were you alone in the room? Was anyone able to be with you?
Roberts: My mom was with me.
Trinko: Oh, good.
Roberts: I actually drove myself. Well, my mom was with me, but I drove after my water broke about 2 o’clock in the morning. I drove the hour, hour and a half to the hospital.
Trinko: So, you’re having contractions and driving?
Roberts: Yeah.
Trinko: Did you speed a little? Because I would’ve.
Roberts: Probably, probably. I think. So much trauma, I don’t remember all the details of that because that time specifically, I get into detail throughout the book about how dark of a place that his dark place led me to. And you’re alone, you’re pregnant, the father is suffering from addiction. The father is absent, the future is unknown. This might be the first son. His father might run for presidency. I’m finding out my dad has cancer. I’m becoming a mom. The future is—there’s a lot of stuff. And you go through all of that with me in the book. I know it sounds like a lot, me telling you that. But you go through it step by step with me through the book.
And that’s why I talk about so many emotions that are put into here because I become … I become Hunter’s scandal. And I was somebody that he had claimed that he could trust and somebody that he can confide in, or at least that’s what I was told. And now I’ve let him down.
So, I spent that entire time in a really dark place. And I go into detail throughout the book describing that to the point where it felt like I was not only a burden to Hunter, I was a burden to my family. I’ve brought this scandal upon them, I’ve brought this scandal upon a daughter who didn’t ask for it. And maybe things would be better if I wasn’t here. And that dark place, mental health is real.
And if you let yourself get to that dark place, it can get pretty dark. And you’ll think about things that you would never think of with a healthy mind.
Trinko: So, how did you pick the name Navy?
Roberts: That’s a good question. So, I was against it at first. I loved it when I first heard it. … So, I was actually on the rooftop of House of Sweden where Rosemont Seneca was located. And me and another one of Hunter’s assistants were moving a couch from the house, having one of his couches moved. And we’re watching these movers and stuff from this rooftop.
My sister calls me and she’s like, “If it’s a girl, I have found the most perfect name.” And I was like, “What?” And she’s like, “Navy.” And I was like, “Yeah, I like it.” And I was like, “No, I can’t do that.” And she says, “Why?” I said, “Well, Hunter was discharged from the Navy.” And she’s like, “Oh. Well, nobody will ever know, right?” And I’m like, “Yeah, you’re right. Nobody’s ever going to know about it anyways.”
But I love the name. I wanted something short and I wanted something unique. And I’ll say, it had absolutely nothing to do with Hunter’s relation to the Navy. That’s not why I picked that name. It was solely because of that phone call, I’ll say.
Trinko: So, how was being a single mom for you, especially in the early days? I’m assuming Navy was a normal baby and cried at night a lot. Did anyone else get up at night with you, help out?
Roberts: I talked about the dark place that I was in. And in the book, I talk about coming out of that dark place while being a mother. And once you’re out of that dark place and, I don’t know if you have children, but becoming … a mother, you find this selfless, unconditional love. And you know that you will break down any barrier for your child. And you’ll do whatever it takes for your child to have the best life possible, and for your child to get what they rightfully deserve in any way. And so, yeah, becoming a mother changed everything.
Trinko: You had the strength to do it.
Roberts: It took a lot. It took a lot of time. That’s why I’m here today and not five years ago, right?
Trinko: Not in the middle of the 3 a.m. crying. So, does your daughter ever remind you of Hunter or are there ways in which you’re like, “Oh, she must be getting that from the Biden side. I don’t recognize this”?
Roberts: Yes. Initially, when she was first born, I hadn’t seen her. And my mom had seen her first. And I talk about being detached, and I was like, “Who does she look like?” Because mom was like, “She had a head full of black hair.” Well, I was born with a head full of black hair. So I immediately was like, “Does she look like me?” Mom was like, “She looks like someone I’ve never [met] … ” Got to be kidding me. Nine months of this and she looks like him?
And she does. She got his beautiful eyes. And there’s a lot of similarities there where even my friend—him and I had a mutual friend from D.C. And when she comes around me and Navy, she laughs. She’s like, “Oh my God, Navy, you were giving me PTSD. Like, this is so bad.” And it’s funny and we can laugh about it now.
But I’ve always seen great qualities in Hunter. And people think that I’m just clueless and I’m stupid and oblivious. And it’s a girl in love, despite everything else. And I always saw great qualities in him. And I can remember when I was pregnant, I might’ve been nine months. I was on the line. I mean, I was fixing to have this baby. And I think in my head I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this baby is going to be half of him. What if it looks like him? What if it talks like him? Nature over nurture. What do I do?”
And so, I call that mutual friend, and she’s like, “OK.” She said, “Well, think about it this way. What is one good thing that you would want her to get from Hunter?” And I was like, “OK.” I was like, “Well, his heart.” And he had a good heart and he was caring. He went out of his way to try to help people. He did. And I witnessed that several times. And even going to stories throughout the book where that happens. And it seems genuine and sincere.
She says, “OK, well, what’s one thing you don’t want her to get from Hunter?” And I was like, “His feet.” Turns out she got both of them and a lot more, so you deal with it.
Trinko: Wow, that’s beautiful in a way. The potential you saw in him, you’re seeing in your daughter, all those good things.
Roberts: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Trinko: So, was there ever a time where you were thinking, “He’s disappeared. Is she better off with him in her life?” I know you fought very hard legally for that. But was there ever a time where you thought, “Maybe I should just let him go”?
Roberts: I wanted him to take accountability for that. And I’d even had friends that he had met with after she was born. And me standing here today able to write this book is embracing my story. And that’s something I want my daughter to be able to do. …
Was I supposed to just tell her that her father was some random man or tell her that I didn’t know who her father was? because I did. And I mean, if he was Joe Blow on the street, I was going to tell her who her father was when that day came. And I don’t ever want her to think I didn’t fight for her or at least offer that relationship.
And another part was that accountability. When he had met with some of my friends after I’d had Navy and told them, “Well, how do I even know it’s mine?” And they even told him, “You know it’s yours.” He’s like, “I know, I know.” But I knew then in my head.
So, throughout the pregnancy and stuff, I talk about how I make excuses for him and I protect him. And I feel like that’s what I’m doing by staying hidden in these shadows. And then coming out of them is not sabotaging him, is not sabotaging anyone other than just telling my story. And that’s something that I want Navy to be able to admire her mother for. Stand 10 toes down and tell your story and have that accountability.
And also, it’s also a story of forgiveness and redemption and having grace for people. And those are things that I want to instill in her.
So, would it be easier if he weren’t my child’s father? Absolutely. But these are the cards I was dealt. He is her father. I don’t ever want her to be ashamed of where she comes from, or I don’t want her to ever question that, as she shouldn’t. And so, I think part of me getting him to take that accountability was just owning the truth. I want you to own this.
Trinko: So, my understanding is that there was a legal settlement last year that resulted in Navy getting to talk to her father on a regular basis, but also in her getting some of his art for her room if she wanted. Did she pick out a painting of his? What does it look like?
Roberts: Yes. And normally I’m there when she’s Zooming him and stuff, but I’m not in the screen, “Hey, how you doing? What’s going on?” We chat, we co-parent through Zoom. And he’s asked her which painting and whatnot, and she’ll pick one. But I haven’t paid attention to those.
And I’ll be honest, me and Hunter are still working out a place to put them. Because even though she’s picked them out and stuff, he’s got them wrapped and at an attorney’s office. And they take up a lot of space, and so we’ve talked about even, like, “Do you have enough room for these? Where can these go?” And it’s like, “Ah, I’m going to decorate my house in paintings. Or?”
Trinko: Did he even paint when you were together?
Roberts: No.
Trinko: No. OK.
Roberts: No, he didn’t.
Trinko: This has been a new interest. OK.
Roberts: I think it helped him during his recovery. He’s always been kind of artistic and doodled and stuff, but not to this extreme, that I was aware of.
Trinko: So, with President Joe Biden and first lady Jill Biden, they have not met Navy yet. Right?
Roberts: They have not.
Trinko: What would you say to them? If you could get 10, 15 minutes in a room alone with them, what would you want to say?
Roberts: They’ve missed out. And I would let them know that. They’ve missed out on some great years and a great child that they probably could have learned a lot from. I know me and my family have learned a lot.
And I’d tell them about how she is and what they’ve missed out on, things that they’ve missed out on. And I just want to know why, because that didn’t have to be the case. And if you want to blame me for this toxic litigation that was surrounding her, that was just accountability. That was just me trying to say, “You have a grandchild out there and Hunter has a child. And it’s scientific certainty. It’s proven.”
Trinko: And does your daughter, does she ever see President Biden on TV? Does she know who he is?
Roberts: I keep the news and stuff off at the house and the media, for obvious reasons. And she does. She’s walked by TV screens. I can’t help what other people have on.
But we were in a nail salon one time and she’s like, “Mom, look, there’s my grandpa.” And I’m like, “First of all, lower your voice. Second off, yes.” And so, she sees him as this grandfather that she loves from a distance but has this relationship where it doesn’t exist. But she knows that that’s her grandfather. She’s aware. And throughout this book, I also talk—listen, it’s a wild ride, OK?
We go from this relationship to this pregnancy and these dark places and coming out of them, and being a mom, and the legal stuff that takes place. But there’s also, toward the ending, she gets of an age where she wants to know, “Why don’t I have a dad?” And I want her to be resilient, I want her to be strong, I want her to be open-minded. I tell her, I make excuses and tell her—”Well, why haven’t I seen him?” “Well, he lives far away. He’s a busy man. He lives far away.” And I tell her about her grandparents and why everyone’s so busy. And I take her with me my first election, or my first election, her first election since she was born, not mine.
Trinko: The 2020 election?
Roberts: Yeah. And I let her know who they are and what she comes from. I tell her about the president, how he has all these different tasks and he’s so important. He’s the leader of the free world. I go into all these details with her kind of like the books about kings and queens, like, “Well, we have a president.” And she understands to that extent. And I talk about one of the stories throughout the book is telling her that. And she says, “Oh, well, that’s why he hasn’t been to see me, because he’s out there helping so many other people. But when he’s done, he’s going to come see me.”
Trinko: That’s beautiful and heartbreaking.
Roberts: I can only hope. Yeah. And I mean, she gives them grace from afar as well.
Trinko: Did you tell Hunter you were writing this book?
Roberts: I could not. You signed different terms and stuff with publishers. And I wasn’t allowed to speak with people about the book until a certain date.
Trinko: And you’ve been a figure who’s been covered by the media for years and yet without you, I think, ever speaking out until this book came out, correct me if I’m wrong.
Roberts: I couldn’t. I wasn’t able to. I’m telling you today, people say, “Why now? Oh, it’s because it’s an election year and she wants fame.” Well, people don’t see the anxiety that I have behind the scenes. And coming on and being able to talk to you and stuff, I wouldn’t have been able to do that years ago. I wouldn’t have been able to do that this time last year. This has been a healing journey. And I think that this story, this book is something that could impact a lot of people’s lives who need that sort of healing in their life.
Trinko: So, what do you want Americans to know about you? Who’s the real Lunden Roberts, not the one that’s been in all these articles all these years, with all these rumors spreading around? Who do you see yourself as?
Roberts: I talk throughout the book about identifying—I detached from who I am and these feelings. But one thing I’ve always put on, the only label I’ve ever wore is mother. And that’s something I wear proudly. I’m a proud mom and I love my child to the end of the world.
But I talk about all those things throughout the book. And this is “Out of the Shadows,” it’s part of it. Coming out, embracing this, embracing who I am, and embracing my daughter and where she comes from and standing on that. That’s something that I would hope that she could only admire me for at one point, when she’s old enough to. Right now, I’m just mom.
Trinko: It’s a good place to be.
Roberts: Yeah.
Trinko: Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Roberts: Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Katrina Trinko is the editor-in-chief of The Daily Signal.
